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2009-05-07 16:12:45|  分类: 默认分类 |  标签: |举报 |字号 订阅

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PB: But people do suggest - in the China-India comparison, for example - thatyour argumentative Indians are merely verbose; there is more talk, less action.They take a long time to come to a decision. In some matters of economicdevelopment, you need to make decisions quickly. In 1990, the Chinese did nothave any superhighways, and now, in superhighway mileage, they are the secondin the world next to the United States. Try to have a highway in India and therewill be endless discussion. There will be land disputes, agitations by peoplewho may be uprooted, they will then go to political parties, and some politicalparty will take a position, - "No, you cannot do that," etc.

PB: 但是,人们却说(如进行中印比较时),你的那些坐而论道的印度人们,只是多嘴多舌的人们;他们说得太多,做得太少。他们花了太长的时间去寻找决定。在讨论经济发展的问题时,你需要快速决策。在1990年时,中国还没有一条高速公路,现在,在高速公路的里程上,中国是仅次于美国的世界第二大国。如果你想在印度建一条高速公路,就会有无休止的争论。如土地争议,搬离故土的人们的愤怒,他们还会去找政党,有一些政党还会采取否决的立场:“不,你们不能做!”等等。

AS: There are certain thingsthat are much easier to do in China.There if you have to uproot people to build a highway, you can build it and notworry too much about their approval. It doesn't matter what rights they mayhave. If you want to make the country in such a way that autobahns could beconstructed very quickly, or - as Mussolini used to claim, the trains should berun on time - if that's the only value, then I think there is a lot of merit ingiving up democracy. But if you take rights of others seriously, if you regardthat citizens and their claims to their little space make a difference, then Iam afraid the longer route becomes inescapable, no matter if it delays the autobahnor if the train to Rome arrives 25 minutes late. Secondly, quickness ofdecision is not necessarily the best recipe for good action. The Chinese, withthe same rapidity as building superhighways, also abolished the universalinsurance of health. In India,that would have been delayed, and would have been stopped. China executes every week more people than India hasexecuted in its entire history since independence 60 years ago. I don't think Iwant to be the citizen of a country that does things like that. I am happyenough to be a citizen of a country that discusses the rich variety of Chineseexperiences in a democratic way and decides that we do want some of thesethings, but not others.


PB: The culture in which you and I grew up, the Bengali culture, is suffusedwith the ideas of Tagore, but the rest of the world - and even the rest of India - aremore familiar with the ideas of Gandhi. What were their different views of India?


AS: Tagore is, of course,immensely known in Bangladeshand in parts of Indiain a way that he is not anywhere else in the world. Gandhi, because of politicsbeing a more communicable process, also because of his influence on MartinLuther King and Mandela and others, has a much bigger set of admirers.



They both were extremely keen on a nonsectarian India.I think both would have approved - I flatter myself in thinking - of my projectin The ArgumentativeIndian. On the other hand, their traditions were different. Gandhiwas much more religious in a traditional sense than Tagore was. Tagore didbelieve in God, but he was God-respecting, God-loving, again and againdescribing God as - "my friend" as opposed to someone you're reallyin awe of. With Gandhi, some of the God-fearingness came in. I would put himsomewhere between the God-fearing part of Christianity and Tagore's God-loving,which in a sense is a development out of the Vaishnava movement in Hinduism, aswell as the influence of Sufis that came into India on the Islamic side and ledto the kind of harmonious combination in the writings of Kabir and Dadu andothers four or five hundred years ago. That kind of religiosity is veryimportant for Tagore. But that's easily combinable with science. Tagore was agreat believer in science education; Gandhi was not. Their attitudes towardbirth control were quite different. Tagore was in favor of family planning.Gandhi was very much against it. He was in favor of abstinence. Tagore actuallyhas a passage where he comments on the tremendous fear of sex that Gandhijihad. I can't say that Tagore was a great model of sexual indulgence. His wifedied, of course, quite young, but it seems from all accounts that he developedsome kind of a crush on a very talented Argentine woman named Victoria Ocampo.And she too fell very much in love with Tagore. But Tagore was very clumsy andtied up in his own thoughts, and it didn't really lead to a Þ not only notconsummation, but not to any kind of further pursuit of that relation. 在印度的非宗教地区,他们都极受亲近。我觉得他们二位,都会同意我在《争议印度人》里的说法,哈,我有点自吹自擂了。另一方面,他们的传统却有不同之处。在传统的意义上,甘地比泰戈尔更具宗教性。泰戈尔是相信神,但是,他是尊敬它、热爱它,他一次又一次地将神描写为“我的朋友”,在他那儿,神不是你真实敬畏的“神”。对于甘地来说,还是有一点对神的畏惧的。甘地,在我看来,他位于基督教徒的“对神的恐惧”和泰戈尔的“对神的热爱”之间,在某种程度上,它产生自印度教的毗湿奴派信徒(Vaishinava)运动,这一点就像在印度发生的伊斯兰教的苏菲教的影响一样,这就导致了四五百年前的迦比尔和Dadu和其他人的记录,都和谐地写在了一起。这种虔诚,对于泰戈尔来说,是很重要的。但是,它是很容易与科学结合在一起的。泰戈尔是科学教学的虔诚信奉者,可是,甘地却不是这样。他们对生育控制的态度,也是很不相同的。泰戈尔倾向于计划生育。而甘地却很反对。他倾向于禁欲。而泰戈尔实际上,有一段文字,评论的就是甘地对性的深怀恐惧。我不能说泰戈尔是一个性沉溺者的典型分子。他的夫人,年轻时,就去世了。但是,有个阿根廷的聪明女人,叫Victoria Ocampo,却因他而受伤。她如此地深爱泰戈尔。可是,泰戈尔却不够机灵,守着他的老思想。最后,这场恋爱,并没有有结果,他也没有进一步地发展这种关系。

PB: He was into his seventies whenthey became ...


AS: It began earlier, butTagore's involvement lasted through his seventies. But now that I have enteredthe seventies, I don't necessarily accept that there is something clinicallywrong in having an involvement! Gandhi, of course, also remained much more of apolitician than Tagore. When Tagore and Gandhi were both involved in theanti-untouchability movement in the 1930s, and the Biharearthquake took place in 1934, in which a lot of people died, Gandhiji immediatelyconverted that into a political advantage by saying that this is God'spunishment for untouchability. It seemed like an effective argument. Tagore wasappalled by it, both because he thought that introducing politics into asituation in which a lot of the people killed were children who had nothing todo with untouchability was a pretty nasty thing to do. He also thought thatearthquakes have scientific causes that people should understand, about thenature of the earth and the tectonic movements. Despite the fact that Gandhijiwas such a moral person, he was certainly not above using very instrumentallyconvenient arguments for pursuing a good cause. In that sense, he emerged muchmore as a consequentialist than he actually, in his theory, ever revealed.


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